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Do what's right and Please sign

What's on your mind?

by tbjd33 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:35 pm

fastpitchdad05 wrote:
crashsdaddy wrote:I know of two other sites with the petition link on it. One has 2600 views, the other 4400 views. Most posters say they don't see the issue and obviously damn few signed the petition.

Guess its a non issue.


That's the issue...people don't realize what the issue is,

What we need are testimonials from parents or players who have been hurt by this so more people can understand the risk vs reward of the early verbal.


Currently the handful of early verbals (24 - 2019 and 130ish 2018's) I doubt you'll find many if any bad experiences. Now I think things have changed from past years where there where bad experiences. Coaches know they have to be up front and provide as much info as possible.

We are in the process of early verbals and have talked to many early commits. It's not as you all portray... Just isn't!

I still stand for any positive experience over a limited experience. I ask what is the motive to limit these early verbals? It's simple of you don't like it than don't allow your DD to do it. Pretty simple...
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by fastpitchdad05 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:16 pm

tbjd33 wrote:
fastpitchdad05 wrote:
crashsdaddy wrote:I know of two other sites with the petition link on it. One has 2600 views, the other 4400 views. Most posters say they don't see the issue and obviously damn few signed the petition.

Guess its a non issue.


That's the issue...people don't realize what the issue is,

What we need are testimonials from parents or players who have been hurt by this so more people can understand the risk vs reward of the early verbal.


Currently the handful of early verbals (24 - 2019 and 130ish 2018's) I doubt you'll find many if any bad experiences. Now I think things have changed from past years where there where bad experiences. Coaches know they have to be up front and provide as much info as possible.

We are in the process of early verbals and have talked to many early commits. It's not as you all portray... Just isn't!

I still stand for any positive experience over a limited experience. I ask what is the motive to limit these early verbals? It's simple of you don't like it than don't allow your DD to do it. Pretty simple...


If it's so simple why isn't everyone doing it?
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by AlwaysImprove » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:58 am

Problem is you will not know early verbals are a fail until after their freshman year.

I think parents have gotten smarter about the process. There are still plenty of evidence of the breakdowns.

Still a number of teams with 30+ on the roster, 10 freshman and graduating 4. Still a number of transfers.

The problem is that 13 year old has little to do with the 18 year old that will be walking into college. At 13 kids largely live to satisfy their parents. They do not really get a say of their own in this life changing, life determining decision.

Parents are getting what they want. College coaches are getting what they want. Select coaches are getting what the want. The continuously increasing transfer rate shows that kids may be the only ones not getting what they want.

My only concern with the current petition is that NCAA is likely not going to understand it. In every other sport early verbals has allowed kids to create opportunity. Softball breaks down because once a kid verbals they are no longer recruited.

Football, Men's Basketball, Women's basketball kids are recruited right up until the NLI is signed. Verbals in these sports work much better as the kid can use the verbal to get a deal with a medium school and use that to work up to a better school.
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by tbjd33 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:25 pm

fastpitchdad05 wrote:
tbjd33 wrote:
fastpitchdad05 wrote:
crashsdaddy wrote:I know of two other sites with the petition link on it. One has 2600 views, the other 4400 views. Most posters say they don't see the issue and obviously damn few signed the petition.

Guess its a non issue.


That's the issue...people don't realize what the issue is,

What we need are testimonials from parents or players who have been hurt by this so more people can understand the risk vs reward of the early verbal.


Currently the handful of early verbals (24 - 2019 and 130ish 2018's) I doubt you'll find many if any bad experiences. Now I think things have changed from past years where there where bad experiences. Coaches know they have to be up front and provide as much info as possible.

We are in the process of early verbals and have talked to many early commits. It's not as you all portray... Just isn't!

I still stand for any positive experience over a limited experience. I ask what is the motive to limit these early verbals? It's simple of you don't like it than don't allow your DD to do it. Pretty simple...


If it's so simple why isn't everyone doing it?


The process is far from simple though the choice to not participate is. It is clearly evident this isn't a majority concern. Look at the numbers. I ask why so many care about so few? It is that families choice...

In everything there are select bad examples does that mean we stop? It will work itself out if majority early verbals begin to backfire, but that isn't the case so far!
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by tbjd33 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:31 pm

AlwaysImprove wrote:Problem is you will not know early verbals are a fail until after their freshman year.

I think parents have gotten smarter about the process. There are still plenty of evidence of the breakdowns.

Still a number of teams with 30+ on the roster, 10 freshman and graduating 4. Still a number of transfers.

The problem is that 13 year old has little to do with the 18 year old that will be walking into college. At 13 kids largely live to satisfy their parents. They do not really get a say of their own in this life changing, life determining decision.

Parents are getting what they want. College coaches are getting what they want. Select coaches are getting what the want. The continuously increasing transfer rate shows that kids may be the only ones not getting what they want.

My only concern with the current petition is that NCAA is likely not going to understand it. In every other sport early verbals has allowed kids to create opportunity. Softball breaks down because once a kid verbals they are no longer recruited.

Football, Men's Basketball, Women's basketball kids are recruited right up until the NLI is signed. Verbals in these sports work much better as the kid can use the verbal to get a deal with a medium school and use that to work up to a better school.


AI everyone is more cautious and getting much smarter. I agree the first wave resulted in more than its fair share of negative outcomes. Now those numbers as a whole are different.

Take a look at the top schools. Most are finished with 2018 and will be done with 2019's by start of spring. Their numbers plate not outrageous with three or four on average. Look at the number of seniors and they will backfil this same. Look at Arkansas that's an issue... They verbal everyone and don't give $$ to it. Those kind of schools are the ones to be concerned about.

Sky isn't falling...
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by fastpitchdad05 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:50 pm

tbjd33 wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:Problem is you will not know early verbals are a fail until after their freshman year.

I think parents have gotten smarter about the process. There are still plenty of evidence of the breakdowns.

Still a number of teams with 30+ on the roster, 10 freshman and graduating 4. Still a number of transfers.

The problem is that 13 year old has little to do with the 18 year old that will be walking into college. At 13 kids largely live to satisfy their parents. They do not really get a say of their own in this life changing, life determining decision.

Parents are getting what they want. College coaches are getting what they want. Select coaches are getting what the want. The continuously increasing transfer rate shows that kids may be the only ones not getting what they want.

My only concern with the current petition is that NCAA is likely not going to understand it. In every other sport early verbals has allowed kids to create opportunity. Softball breaks down because once a kid verbals they are no longer recruited.

Football, Men's Basketball, Women's basketball kids are recruited right up until the NLI is signed. Verbals in these sports work much better as the kid can use the verbal to get a deal with a medium school and use that to work up to a better school.


AI everyone is more cautious and getting much smarter. I agree the first wave resulted in more than its fair share of negative outcomes. Now those numbers as a whole are different.

Take a look at the top schools. Most are finished with 2018 and will be done with 2019's by start of spring. Their numbers plate not outrageous with three or four on average. Look at the number of seniors and they will backfil this same. Look at Arkansas that's an issue... They verbal everyone and don't give $$ to it. Those kind of schools are the ones to be concerned about.

Sky isn't falling...


Assuming you are right about the numbers and that the sky is not falling, why not just change the way things are done now so that the sky doesn't have a chance to fall again?

The goal is 100% not most or even above average.

It is broken. Fix it.
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by PDad » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:22 pm

tbjd33 wrote:Take a look at the top schools. Most are finished with 2018 and will be done with 2019's by start of spring. Their numbers plate not outrageous with three or four on average. Look at the number of seniors and they will backfil this same. Look at Arkansas that's an issue... They verbal everyone and don't give $$ to it. Those kind of schools are the ones to be concerned about.

I expect you really mean "top programs" rather than "top schools"... Even so, some of the schools recruiting early don't fit either - Boise St, Samford, SE La.

Any talk of schools being done with a year fuels the anxiety of parents and players. Let's look at the numbers by class according to FloSoftball's list.

2015 - 1,400
2016 - 1,050
2017 - 518
2018 - 149
2019 - 24

Players that can make an impact at the top level really don't have to commit so early - Barnhill proved last year they will still have good options later on.
Last edited by PDad on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by fastpitchdad05 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:03 pm

Great points, PDad.

33, I almost sense that although you acknowledge there's an issue with the current system you somehow don't think it should be changed. Am I right?

Is there a reason that is in the best interest of the girls to not revamp the system that I'm not aware of?
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by AlwaysImprove » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:28 pm

tbjd33 wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:Problem is you will not know early verbals are a fail until after their freshman year.

I think parents have gotten smarter about the process. There are still plenty of evidence of the breakdowns.

Still a number of teams with 30+ on the roster, 10 freshman and graduating 4. Still a number of transfers.

The problem is that 13 year old has little to do with the 18 year old that will be walking into college. At 13 kids largely live to satisfy their parents. They do not really get a say of their own in this life changing, life determining decision.

Parents are getting what they want. College coaches are getting what they want. Select coaches are getting what the want. The continuously increasing transfer rate shows that kids may be the only ones not getting what they want.

My only concern with the current petition is that NCAA is likely not going to understand it. In every other sport early verbals has allowed kids to create opportunity. Softball breaks down because once a kid verbals they are no longer recruited.

Football, Men's Basketball, Women's basketball kids are recruited right up until the NLI is signed. Verbals in these sports work much better as the kid can use the verbal to get a deal with a medium school and use that to work up to a better school.


AI everyone is more cautious and getting much smarter. I agree the first wave resulted in more than its fair share of negative outcomes. Now those numbers as a whole are different.

Take a look at the top schools. Most are finished with 2018 and will be done with 2019's by start of spring. Their numbers plate not outrageous with three or four on average. Look at the number of seniors and they will backfil this same. Look at Arkansas that's an issue... They verbal everyone and don't give $$ to it. Those kind of schools are the ones to be concerned about.

Sky isn't falling...

I did not say the sky is falling. Just that there are problems. Teams like Arkansas, ULL, SDSU are certainly examples. There are definitely worse.

The crowd used to be a lot larger and included Az, UW, and many others. They have only really straightened their act because they know it is getting discussed and causing them quality recruits.

I think you assume most parents are like yourself. Here, there, UCS, getting educated. Most are probably not. Look at the mistakes that well educated parents make routinely.

I would say a bigger break down can be seen from Pdad's numbers. Those 149 2018's and those 24 2019's are the most highly recruited of players. They should easily have the most flexibility, the most options. They should be able to play school A against school B and have their pick. Yet in the softball system they are the ones that lock in at the youngest age. Never reconsider their decision over the 4+ years.

Willingly removing themselves from the market as 8th graders or HS freshman. For nothing more than a 'unenforceable' verbal.

NCAA should definitely be looking into the collusion that freezes the marketplace. Why schools stop recruiting prospects once they verbal. The smart thing for a school would be to strike up a conversation with one of those top 2018's see if they can get them. Yet they do not do it.
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by fastpitchdad05 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:24 pm

AlwaysImprove wrote:
tbjd33 wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:Problem is you will not know early verbals are a fail until after their freshman year.

I think parents have gotten smarter about the process. There are still plenty of evidence of the breakdowns.

Still a number of teams with 30+ on the roster, 10 freshman and graduating 4. Still a number of transfers.

The problem is that 13 year old has little to do with the 18 year old that will be walking into college. At 13 kids largely live to satisfy their parents. They do not really get a say of their own in this life changing, life determining decision.

Parents are getting what they want. College coaches are getting what they want. Select coaches are getting what the want. The continuously increasing transfer rate shows that kids may be the only ones not getting what they want.

My only concern with the current petition is that NCAA is likely not going to understand it. In every other sport early verbals has allowed kids to create opportunity. Softball breaks down because once a kid verbals they are no longer recruited.

Football, Men's Basketball, Women's basketball kids are recruited right up until the NLI is signed. Verbals in these sports work much better as the kid can use the verbal to get a deal with a medium school and use that to work up to a better school.


AI everyone is more cautious and getting much smarter. I agree the first wave resulted in more than its fair share of negative outcomes. Now those numbers as a whole are different.

Take a look at the top schools. Most are finished with 2018 and will be done with 2019's by start of spring. Their numbers plate not outrageous with three or four on average. Look at the number of seniors and they will backfil this same. Look at Arkansas that's an issue... They verbal everyone and don't give $$ to it. Those kind of schools are the ones to be concerned about.

Sky isn't falling...

I did not say the sky is falling. Just that there are problems. Teams like Arkansas, ULL, SDSU are certainly examples. There are definitely worse.

The crowd used to be a lot larger and included Az, UW, and many others. They have only really straightened their act because they know it is getting discussed and causing them quality recruits.

I think you assume most parents are like yourself. Here, there, UCS, getting educated. Most are probably not. Look at the mistakes that well educated parents make routinely.

I would say a bigger break down can be seen from Pdad's numbers. Those 149 2018's and those 24 2019's are the most highly recruited of players. They should easily have the most flexibility, the most options. They should be able to play school A against school B and have their pick. Yet in the softball system they are the ones that lock in at the youngest age. Never reconsider their decision over the 4+ years.

Willingly removing themselves from the market as 8th graders or HS freshman. For nothing more than a 'unenforceable' verbal.

NCAA should definitely be looking into the collusion that freezes the marketplace. Why schools stop recruiting prospects once they verbal. The smart thing for a school would be to strike up a conversation with one of those top 2018's see if they can get them. Yet they do not do it.


AI, why do you think they decide against "tampering"? The fallout/repercussions seem minimal.
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