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Time for rule change?

What's on your mind?

by Pale Rider » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:17 pm

PDad wrote:
Mark H wrote:I guess no replies validates my thought. Leap is a rule with no point at all.

Seriously? More likely no one saw your question with the requisite experience to provide an informed opinion.


Or, nobody cares about the thought?
Not that Im worried the NCAA is behooved to make the change you seek (why...I don't know)

Teach your kid to be legal...
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by Mark H » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:48 pm

Don't have a kid playing anymore. Just wondering what good the rule is. Kind of requires abstract thought
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by Mark H » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:02 pm

Thinking about safe's thoughtful answer I can't disagree. Next turn would go to anyone with a reason to keep the rule. Anyone got anything?
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by Safebyahare » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:49 pm

Mark H wrote:Thinking about safe's thoughtful answer I can't disagree. Next turn would go to anyone with a reason to keep the rule. Anyone got anything?


Not to change subject or your question, but just a queer observation about pitchers and delivery.
A few years back, Monica Abbott and her team vs Mowatt and her team.
Abbott would start her pitch in a hunched over position, and would come up like Godzilla from the sea a six foot something monster and deliver pitch. (her team lost and she got all recognition)
Mowatt (the smaller better looker imo) would start at one side of rubber and move dangle across. (her team won and she got no recognition)
Yet after this WCWS you saw the enforcement and chalk lines for pitcher's lanes.

I think this is how I saw it or play out. This is just a general thought about how the slightest change of delivery can make a difference.

PS, Would agree that the dragging foot can be subjective, "I think I saw a spurt where there was only comp trail rather than constant cloud as her foot transitioned from one side of drag trench to the other". She hopped, run scored illegal pitch.
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by PDad » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:14 pm

My DD was pitching 8U rec 10 years ago, so I have no idea what high-level FP was like before the leap rule went into effect.

I don't agree with the rationale of changing the rule for females to the men's rule because I haven't heard anyone prove the men's rule is better. UmpSteve and Crabby_Bob provided some perspectives on the men's rule that certainly don't look compelling to me to adopt it for females.

To be clear, the men's rule only allows leaping with "the toes of the pivot foot in the downward direction." What exactly does that mean - foot must be upright or may it be angled 45 degrees? 15 degrees? Adopting the men's rule wouldn't legalize all leapers and may further complicate calling it.

I don't see any mention of the 24" pitching lane for the men, so should that be done away with too?

Battle brought up injury prevention as an element behind the leaping rule, but didn't provide the issue. I can envision legalized leaping causing more stride leg injuries due to pitchers landing with more force.

The crowhop/replant rule could use some work. I'd like to see some differentiation in terminology and rules for when a) the pivot foot moves forward a little off the pitcher's plate before the stride vs b) the replant happens after the initial push from the plate (i.e. midstride). The rule for "a" should clarify it's okay to lift the heel off the plate as long as the foot doesn't move forward. The rule for "b" should be clarified because there's a lot of confusion about what constitutes "pushing off" and it should be something that is realistically enforceable by an umpire in live action from his vantage point.

Edited: To clarify, the confusion is mainly with fans and participants rather than umpires.

As I posted earlier, the advance of runner(s) should be removed from the penalty for an IP.
Last edited by PDad on Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by UmpSteve » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:00 pm

Realistically, I think it's foolish/short-sighted to suggest that college umpires don't call illegal pitches because they may not recognize them or understand the rules sufficiently. For the vast majority at that level, that simply isn't true. In rec ball, sure; somewhat even in travel ball. But college umpires know.

So why aren't all perceived illegal pitches called? It's pretty simple; very few umpires are so overwhelming perceived as being at the top of the game that they would survive the $hit-storm that follows. College coaches do not want all illegal pitches called; I honestly don't believe those of you that posted here that you want all illegal pitches called. Every one of you really only want illegal pitches called on the OTHER team's pitcher. It's "let the girls play!!" when it's on your team, or the one you follow.

When Arizona pitcher was leaping, Candrea only complained that it was called; never once said it wasn't, never once accepted blame for his staff not getting fixed, Same story when Florida pitcher was called; Walton blames umpires for calling it. Same thing when it was USF with Team USA coach (chairman of the NCAA Rules Committe) and his Team USA pitcher, Didn't Washington coach Tarr recently get ejected for arguing/complaining about illegal pitch calls??

They complain when it's called, but their complaint is it isn't always called despite them knowing what their pitcher is doing. They complain it slows the game down. They complain that TV games look bad when the illegal pitches are called. They come out and argue what is absolutely black and white when it is called. They don't want it called on THEIR PITCHER, and the umpires know that, in most cases, the umpire coordinators that schedule them will stop scheduling them when enough high profile coaches complain about them.

We aren't assigned by the NCAA. Did you know that? We are assigned by conference coordinators, hired/selected by the conferences, not elected or selected or even responsive to the umpires that they choose to assign. In effect, they work for the conference, and the conference staff works for and answers to the schools and the coaches. If someone not feeling particularly supported by that coordinator, or is marginally on that staff, they aren't going to make waves and have the coaches complain about them.

Does the NCAA really think they should all be called? Then they should make it illegal to argue about illegal pitch calls, just like balks cannot be discussed in baseball, and ball/strike judgment cannot be argued in either baseball or softball. And they should publicly support the calling of illegal pitches; they did once several years ago, for a few weeks, and then stepped back and used words like "consider all pitches legal until they are overwhelmingly and absolutely illegal" because umpires did actually start calling all the illegal pitches (and the coaches complained, so they backed off).

And yes, I agree with PDad that, at least at lower levels, more umpires would call illegal pitches if the only penalty/consequence was a ball, not both a ball and base awards. And if they were called at younger ages, then pitchers would learn how to pitch legally. Instead of whining if it is a good rule, it would just be fixed and not an issue.
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by DonnieS » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:46 pm

UmpSteve wrote: But college umpires know.



It depends on the conference. The Peter Principle is hard at work, even in our beloved sport.
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by Mark H » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:56 pm

Lots of off point discussion and observations. I thought this was close to on point.

"I don't agree with the rationale of changing the rule for females to the men's rule because I haven't heard anyone prove the men's rule is better."

A voice of caution. Reasonable.

But again, what good is the leap rule? Would we be better off, the same or worse off in ten years if we dumped the leap rule and why.
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by UmpSteve » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:08 pm

UmpSteve wrote:Realistically, I think it's foolish/short-sighted to suggest that college umpires don't call illegal pitches because they may not recognize them or understand the rules sufficiently. For the vast majority at that level, that simply isn't true. In rec ball, sure; somewhat even in travel ball. But college umpires know.

So why aren't all perceived illegal pitches called? It's pretty simple; very few umpires are so overwhelming perceived as being at the top of the game that they would survive the $hit-storm that follows. College coaches do not want all illegal pitches called; I honestly don't believe those of you that posted here that you want all illegal pitches called. Every one of you really only want illegal pitches called on the OTHER team's pitcher. It's "let the girls play!!" when it's on your team, or the one you follow.

When Arizona pitcher was leaping, Candrea only complained that it was called; never once said it wasn't, never once accepted blame for his staff not getting fixed, Same story when Florida pitcher was called; Walton blames umpires for calling it. Same thing when it was USF with Team USA coach (chairman of the NCAA Rules Committe) and his Team USA pitcher, Didn't Washington coach Tarr recently get ejected for arguing/complaining about illegal pitch calls??

They complain when it's called, but their complaint is it isn't always called despite them knowing what their pitcher is doing. They complain it slows the game down. They complain that TV games look bad when the illegal pitches are called. They come out and argue what is absolutely black and white when it is called. They don't want it called on THEIR PITCHER, and the umpires know that, in most cases, the umpire coordinators that schedule them will stop scheduling them when enough high profile coaches complain about them.

We aren't assigned by the NCAA. Did you know that? We are assigned by conference coordinators, hired/selected by the conferences, not elected or selected or even responsive to the umpires that they choose to assign. In effect, they work for the conference, and the conference staff works for and answers to the schools and the coaches. If someone not feeling particularly supported by that coordinator, or is marginally on that staff, they aren't going to make waves and have the coaches complain about them.

Does the NCAA really think they should all be called? Then they should make it illegal to argue about illegal pitch calls, just like balks cannot be discussed in baseball, and ball/strike judgment cannot be argued in either baseball or softball. And they should publicly support the calling of illegal pitches; they did once several years ago, for a few weeks, and then stepped back and used words like "consider all pitches legal until they are overwhelmingly and absolutely illegal" because umpires did actually start calling all the illegal pitches (and the coaches complained, so they backed off).

And yes, I agree with PDad that, at least at lower levels, more umpires would call illegal pitches if the only penalty/consequence was a ball, not both a ball and base awards. And if they were called at younger ages, then pitchers would learn how to pitch legally. Instead of whining if it is a good rule, it would just be fixed and not an issue.


Just wanted to add one more point. Does anyone think it is ironic or strange that illegal pitches are called more notably during NCAA Regional, Super Regional, and WCWS games?? And why the coaches get so much more upset at that point??

Yes, it's a bigger stage; yes, each game means a great deal. But, here's my point; those games are when the umpires DO work directly for the NCAA, not their conference. So the coaches lose their main weapon, the sword they wield, that they can pressure their coordinator to keep that umpire from working their games. It's easier to do what you know is right when 1) the incessant and repetitive replays will show your call was accurate and based on the rule, so the offending coach can't claim you were wrong to make the call (even if Michelle Smith keeps botching the rule and claims it gains no advantage, anyway), and 2) the coach can't keep you from working future games for doing the right thing instead of having to think up reasons not to make the call.

So that's when the coaches use that stage to berate the calls they didn't want made earlier. I liken that argument to telling the judge he can't rule you guilty for speeding because you drive that speed every day and haven't gotten a ticket every day.
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by Battle » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:18 pm

PDad wrote:Battle brought up injury prevention as an element behind the leaping rule, but didn't provide the issue. I can envision legalized leaping causing more stride leg injuries due to pitchers landing with more force.

It wasn't leaping. It was the replant of the crow hop that causes injuries...A) Causes injury to the back, shoulder, and leg. B) Better chance that the pitcher can't defend a ball coming back at her.
I'm not saying it was the sole purpose of the rule, just that there was an injury element in the discussion. Actually it was a question to see if anybody remembered it.
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