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Stealing Signs

What's on your mind?

by PDad » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:22 pm

Sam wrote:
jonriv wrote:
PDad wrote:IMO, retaliating for stealing signs/locations is a neanderthal response by people not smart enough to play/coach properly. You should thank them for being obvious about it so you fix the real problem. The better teams won't let on they're stealing signs.

Pitchers need to be doing everything possible to conceal their grips and also not tip their pitches before anyone thinks about retaliating.


Perfect response!!!!!


Not really. The pitcher needs to hide their grips brom the BATTER. The 3B coach gets to see a RH pitcher take the ball out of the glove and make a 540 degree revolution with the pitch, allowing some coaches to send verbal signals to the batter. It's clearly a bullshit move by the coach taking advantage of a situation that can't be controlled by the pitcher. The 1B coach is normally not savvy enough to do the same with LH pitchers. I have no issues with a pitcher sending the opponent a message when this is happening.

First, I didn't say the pitcher could completely hide her grip - only they need to do what's possible. Second, there's little-to-no opportunity for a coach to recognize the grip, verbalize it and have the batter act on the info if the pitcher conceals their grip while taking it and doesn't pause during their backswing. The coach has to recognize and verbalize the pitch before the forward revolution begins for it to help the batter.
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by newkid » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:15 pm

If an offensive player or coach can't help themselves from reading a grip or setup position and relaying to the batter, then why would a pitcher be held accountable for an errant pitch? I don't agree with any of that stuff, and either should be considered chickenship (sic). That being said, I agree with both sides, neither should be done for the sake of sportsgirlship.
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by Chin Music » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:45 pm

"Retaliation is not part of sports" uh really? That's a response from someone who has never played competitive sports.
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by jtat32 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:51 am

PDad wrote:
jtat32 wrote:So, what are the best ways to disguise:

- Pitch/location signs from coach to catcher?

- Pitch/location signs from catcher to pitcher?

And, what is the best way for catcher and pitcher to communicate when they are trying to fool runner on second who is trying to signal in location?

Signs from catcher to pitcher aren't usually an issue as long as the catcher isn't making them visible to people behind her or to the side. Having the catcher call pitches avoids the coach-to-catcher signs. More and more teams are using a wristband system for signs from a coach because it's easily understood by your players and nearly impossible to crack if done correctly.

Catchers can usually avoid location issues by not setting up early.


We've switched over to having our catchers call the game and it's worked at least as well as having the coach call pitches, if not better. They're smart kids and have more information from their vantage point than I do.

The wristbands are a great way of disguising communication, but they generally slow the game down a bit, so I'm not a big fan. Some coaches/players are pretty efficient with them, but in my hands, I'm sure it would be painful for everyone involved.

I guess what I was fishing for was an explanation along the lines of what I saw Marty Tyson doing in the PGF championship game. I couldn't figure out exactly how his system works, but I guess that's the point since it allows him to do it in full view. Here's a link to what I'm referring to:

https://youtu.be/D9TfuBYbo4M?t=1h44m35s

The other thing I was fishing for was an explanation of the system that you see MLB catchers using. I'm sure that 99% + of the time a runner picks location, they're reading an early set-up by the catcher as you noted, which is easily correctable (at least in theory). Still, I was interested in how they do this in baseball, since they are trying to prevent runners on second from picking signs. It's not rocket science, but it's something I don't understand very well. Here are links to a couple of explanations that were helpful for me, in case anyone's interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5kLbh894J8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-86RfgdQ0

I like this system better than the simple pitch then location system we currently use. It still seems simple enough to employ, but having a little bit of a disguise worked in would make it much easier to add signal to cross-up the hitter if a runner on second is trying to pick locations.

BTW, since we're on the topic, the situation that irritates me the most is when parents pick pitch signals from the stands at the youngest levels.
Last edited by jtat32 on Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by jtat32 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:56 am

Chin Music wrote:"Retaliation is not part of sports" uh really? That's a response from someone who has never played competitive sports.


Way to slay the strawman. Nobody said any such thing.
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by PDad » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:23 pm

jtat32 wrote:
Chin Music wrote:"Retaliation is not part of sports" uh really? That's a response from someone who has never played competitive sports.

Way to slay the strawman. Nobody said any such thing.

Are you calling jonriv a strawman and a nobody? See http://www.heybucket.com/viewtopic.php?p=405266#p405266

jonriv wrote:Retaliation is NOT part of the game. It is somewhat tolerated in the baseball world, in the softball world-especially when it comes to school based sports- it is not nor should it be tolerated. That coach should if caught should be thrown out of the game and if the practice is continued- banned,
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by PDad » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:43 pm

jtat32 wrote:The wristbands are a great way of disguising communication, but they generally slow the game down a bit, so I'm not a big fan. Some coaches/players are pretty efficient with them, but in my hands, I'm sure it would be painful for everyone involved.

The reports I've heard is teams get accustomed to them quickly (e.g 1-2 games). When comparing times, remember the catcher and pitcher get them at the same time - they don't have to be relayed.

I guess what I was fishing for was an explanation along the lines of what I saw Marty Tyson doing in the PGF championship game. I couldn't figure out exactly how his system works, but I guess that's the point since it allows him to do it in full view.

Some systems are based on the number of times a place is touched.

The other thing I was fishing for was an explanation of the system that you see MLB catchers using. I'm sure that 99% + of the time a runner picks location, they're reading an early set-up by the catcher as you noted, which is easily correctable (at least in theory). Still, I was interested in how they do this in baseball, since they are trying to prevent runners on second from picking signs. It's not rocket science...

Last night I noticed a couple GA runners on 2B accurately signaled pitch locations before the catcher set up and TN uses wristbands, so catcher wasn't giving signs. I didn't spot how they did it.

Don't be so subtle next time you're fishin' on the 'bucket - never know what you'll catch!
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by jtat32 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:17 pm

PDad wrote:Are you calling jonriv a strawman and a nobody?


Nope. Taking a quote out of context and exaggerating it to the point where it becomes indefensible is classic strawman technique.
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by jtat32 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:27 pm

PDad wrote:The reports I've heard is teams get accustomed to them quickly (e.g 1-2 games). When comparing times, remember the catcher and pitcher get them at the same time - they don't have to be relayed.


I'm sure my players would be fine, but in my case you would have to factor in the time it takes me to find my reading glasses, track along the grid with my finger, ask someone to remind me what abbreviation we're using for the pitch I want, blurt out the wrong number, and then correct myself. I still have to ask my kids how my phone works sometimes.

Appreciate the input!
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