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by extiger » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:13 pm

AlwaysImprove wrote:I think the issue with this many on the bench goes a bit deeper. It was actually more common to see these large numbers on a number of teams 5 years ago. UCLA, ASU, UW, AZ all seemed to have rosters in the 27+ range. They all seem to have trimmed back down to the 18 or so level.

IMHO the reason these teams trimmed down was that they quickly realized it is not about having loads of kids, but being able to put the right 9 kids on the field at the right time of the year. The smaller rosters have allowed them focus down. Focus more on improving the quality of the kids than can compete and make them better.

This is contrast to the thinking that led to the larger rosters. First off the girls were "free". They were willing to sign on to play softball at zero cost to the program. Second, there was a bit of a betting game that one of those girls may break out, so worth keeping them around just in case. Third, they felt they were keeping those kids from other universities.

Most of all though, it seems having these large rosters tended to create a permanent "bench class". These are kids that are fine riding the bench, they are happy to be in that school, and happy to call themselves on the team. The problem is your middle of the road kids are going to get sucked up or sucked down. You need those kids always trying to step it up, not just accepting their role on the bench.

Nowadays when I see that large of a roster, I tend to associate it with some of the coaches that are not very sure of their recruiting abilities. Which naturally hints at not the best ability to assess talent. And often in the large roster teams you hear of claims of coach favoritism.


My guess is that education is not the top priority for some of these recruits. There are many other D1 schools offering scolarship money with way better degree and career opportunities than Arkansas. Not saying it's a bad school but there are better options.

My daughter was asked to verbal to a mid/major D1 university, one of her top choices, but the coach asked if an amount could be agreed upon at a later time. I had never hear of such an offer. Since she was just going into her sophomore year at the time it was obvious we would wait. We kindly told the coach we would hold off until a solid offer was on the table. Although that school is still interested she has also received many other interests from schools with plenty of money.

I think if families hold off just a little longer they may end up with a better deal.
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by Lunatic Fringe » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:36 pm

Why would anyone verbally commit without defining what they are committing to? I know it happens, I've seen it happen. Kinda blows me away :o
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by Blind Squirrel » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:40 am

Lunatic Fringe wrote:Why would anyone verbally commit without defining what they are committing to? I know it happens, I've seen it happen. Kinda blows me away :o


My speculation is, in such cases, that it is commonly due to the parent's desire to say their kid is verballing to such and such school. All other concerns are secondary. Including financial. Sadly, I've seen too many cases where the kid pays for it for 4 years by spending a ton of time practicing, in the weight room, etc. and then getting 40 at bats over the course of 4 seasons. Ahh but the exquisite irony: The people in the softball community often know the kid will never see the field at that college so they aren't impressed and non-softball people don't know anything about college softball so they aren't impressed. Irony Dos: I've seen many of these cases where the parents stop going to the games knowing their kid won't step on the field.

I wonder if they (the parents) still consider it worth it to them to have been able to pop off. I doubt the kids feel like it was worth it. I would guess most would have liked to play college softball rather than just be on a team. But, that too, appears to be secondary.

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by AlwaysImprove » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:31 am

Generally I agree with DonnieS. Parents want to brag seems to be a heavy driver.

These kids are not committing without knowing. They are often committing to zero dollar deals, with the coach indicating if there are any money left over she may throw them a bone. Coach will also point to those rare kids that are zero dollar commits that work their way to full ride.

One thing these students/parents can be getting is access to attend a competitive school. They may have ok grades but not nearly good enough for a high end school. Softball can help them get a chance to get into that school.

Still this can turn into a very tough life. Since they are probably going to struggle to keep up with the academic work load. They are also going to struggle to keep up on the field. The coach is not going to be shy about bringing in recruits that can compete. Coach gets to the point where they feel that a student is not pulling their weight they can release, or run them into the ground. Both of which will put the student part into a tenuous position. Some schools say you will not be kicked out if you are released.

All important factors to consider in this situation. All trump the desire for parents to brag.
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by Sam » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:39 pm

[quote="AlwaysImprove"]Generally I agree with DonnieS. Parents want to brag seems to be a heavy driver.

These kids are not committing without knowing. They are often committing to zero dollar deals, with the coach indicating if there are any money left over she may throw them a bone. Coach will also point to those rare kids that are zero dollar commits that work their way to full ride.

One thing these students/parents can be getting is access to attend a competitive school. They may have ok grades but not nearly good enough for a high end school. Softball can help them get a chance to get into that school.

Still this can turn into a very tough life. Since they are probably going to struggle to keep up with the academic work load. They are also going to struggle to keep up on the field. The coach is not going to be shy about bringing in recruits that can compete. Coach gets to the point where they feel that a student is not pulling their weight they can release, or run them into the ground. Both of which will put the student part into a tenuous position. Some schools say you will not be kicked out if you are released.

All important factors to consider in this situation. All trump the desire for parents to brag.[/quote]

Nothing trumps the parents' desire to brag.....the softball watering hole is a seedy, unclean, stagnant body of water.....complete with slugs and snails....poisonous mushrooms.....snappers.....and stories.....oh, the stories......they start relatively simply.... "my daughter got contacted by so and so".....but there's another alpha parental unit at the cooler....coming in for the kill......."my kid didn't like so and so.....she wanted to go to a top SB program....so she's being recruited by whats her name"....and on it goes until the fete accompli....somebody plays the "my kid was invited to the Olympic Tryouts" card. Then it is swiftly and suddenly over. The one-upmanship can go no further. The loser slinks away while the alpha waits for it's next meal. No my friend.....there is nothing that trumps the desire to brag.....it is instinct....as inbred as the need to feed. Don't get close to the edge....you may fall in.....and you will never get out.
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by Lunatic Fringe » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:18 pm

The parent thing I agree with.

While in Colorado this year a new family picked up to join us. I'd seen them around the park for years and never really ran in the same circles. They asked me a few getting to know you questions (very few) before telling me that their kid turned down 20 (yes 20) solid offers, including full rides, so she could walk on to her college of choice. I asked if she was a recruited walk on and got a blank stare in return. The girl pitched in 3 innings during the tournament and gave up 4 HR's.

The BS gets so deep sometimes I wish teams would issue a kayak instead of bat bags.

I won't miss the posturing, the BS and the politics. Thank God we have finally aged out :!:
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by DonnieS » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:24 pm

I was lectured in the stands of a church softball game by a very over weight young lady around my girls age that her parents told her that she had to reject "all those offers" and just focus on academics - this "very christian" girl from a "very christian" family repeated this pretty loudly in the stand than even though some coaches in the area (me) never selected her for all-stars in the local rec league, she still got plenty of attention from the big schools. Yep - no place like home.
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by Pale Rider » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:52 am

DonnieS wrote:I was lectured in the stands of a church softball game by a very over weight young lady around my girls age that her parents told her that she had to reject "all those offers" and just focus on academics - this "very christian" girl from a "very christian" family repeated this pretty loudly in the stand than even though some coaches in the area (me) never selected her for all-stars in the local rec league, she still got plenty of attention from the big schools. Yep - no place like home.



You mean...EVERY scholarship isnt 100% :shock:

I was a recruiter 7yrs...a MILITARY recruiter...I am a DOD TRAINED BS'er :D
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by frito_burrito » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:41 pm

everyone congratulates on the full ride. i just say thanks. :shock:
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by Jayhawk » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:42 pm

AlwaysImprove wrote:I
Nowadays when I see that large of a roster, I tend to associate it with some of the coaches that are not very sure of their recruiting abilities. Which naturally hints at not the best ability to assess talent. And often in the large roster teams you hear of claims of coach favoritism.


Interesting point and one that I have not thought of before. I think this is pretty accurate.

My daughter is will be entering her last year of college softball this year. Her school has consistently had one of the larger rosters I have heard of- varied from 26-29 at the start of the fall her first three years. One year they were going to hit 30 but they had two not show up on campus last minute.

Two of the three years there have been plenty of girls weeded out in the fall season and winter workouts that by the time the season started they were about where everybody else was numbers wise.

Her coach does not seem to recruit that hard. He rarely travels to tournaments during the summer. The last two years he called my daughter to go look at some specific players in large local tourneys and call him back with what she saw. (we live in a large Midwestern metropolitan area and their school is about 5 hours away) He just does not get out much, signs a ton, and then lets them fight it out once they get to campus.

I will say he has been effective. Thirty plus wins every year since he took over six years ago. The program was awful prior to that dating back to when the softballs were white and the hair was big .

One way that he gets away with offering so many players scholarships is that the school has fairly reasonable tuition and board compared to most other schools. It is still expensive but is not outrageous which seems to be the case everywhere else. He is able to make the case with many players that it is not the amount of the scholarship you get but what your out of pocket ends up being. It makes sense and allows him to recruit a large team each year by spreading the scholarships thinner.

It does create a competitive environment within the team. My daughter has relayed that it is uncomfortable at times but she has become used to it. You want the team to succeed and you want to do well individually. At the same time you want some of your teammates to fail just enough that they are not threats to you getting your innings pitched\at bats in depending on your situation.

A few other oddities. The last few years he has not posted signings on the school website. He also does not update their roster from the year before until right before the season starts in the spring. Pretty obvious to me he is trying to hide the true numbers from potential recruits as well as returnees.

All that being said I have liked the guy and he has treated my daughter fairly. She has been an important part in what has been a relatively successful program and she has enjoyed it every step of the way. At the same time a program with that many players chews up a lot of kids.
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