High School Stats

[AlwaysImprove]

The standard should always be, "... if a batter is judged to have reached base solely because of a fielder's mistake, it is scored as a "hit on error,"

The only case where the above, easy and straightforward, standard should not apply is in the case of "extraordinary effort", when the fielder dives for a ball, maybe even catches it but is not able to make a play, you can judge that as hit.

Only in the upside down world of softball would someone try to actually take the extraordinary effort language and then make some completely illogical leap to "routine play" and to "routine based on the worst player who has ever played the game level of play" to justify hits vs errors.

Also. Anyone that hands you the ATEC Scoring guide for softball should be laughed upon. These two gems alone completely discount this guide:
g - Merely fielding a ball too slowly is not an error.
h - A mental error is not recorded as an error.
After they hand you that guide, you should kick them off your team and let them go form their own team full of mentally defective slow walking players. Just cause it is posted on the internet does not somehow make it magically authoritative.

There are much better scoring guides out there, the ones on the back of the book are better. The ncaa one is much better:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Baseball/baseball_softball_scorebook.pdf

The other one I like is the "lost in the sun". See scorers score this as hit on an extremely routine fly balls. That is not the point of the "lost in the sun". The ultimate guidance is ordinary effort.
ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.


So a 10 yr old on a tough fly ball in the sun, one that most 10 yr olds would drop, go ahead score that a hit. An 18yr old, applying that same standard you look absolutely goofy. By 18s, for the sun to "cause an error" it had better be a rocket shot, right at them, coming out of the sun to the fielders. Otherwise most other 18s would adjust and make the play. Hence ordinary effort.

[fastpitchdad05]

The standard should always be, "... if a batter is judged to have reached base solely because of a fielder's mistake, it is scored as a "hit on error,"

The only case where the above, easy and straightforward, standard should not apply is in the case of "extraordinary effort", when the fielder dives for a ball, maybe even catches it but is not able to make a play, you can judge that as hit.

Only in the upside down world of softball would someone try to actually take the extraordinary effort language and then make some completely illogical leap to "routine play" and to "routine based on the worst player who has ever played the game level of play" to justify hits vs errors.

Also. Anyone that hands you the ATEC Scoring guide for softball should be laughed upon. These two gems alone completely discount this guide:
g - Merely fielding a ball too slowly is not an error.
h - A mental error is not recorded as an error.
After they hand you that guide, you should kick them off your team and let them go form their own team full of mentally defective slow walking players. Just cause it is posted on the internet does not somehow make it magically authoritative.

There are much better scoring guides out there, the ones on the back of the book are better. The ncaa one is much better:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Baseball/baseball_softball_scorebook.pdf

The other one I like is the "lost in the sun". See scorers score this as hit on an extremely routine fly balls. That is not the point of the "lost in the sun". The ultimate guidance is ordinary effort.
ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.


So a 10 yr old on a tough fly ball in the sun, one that most 10 yr olds would drop, go ahead score that a hit. An 18yr old, applying that same standard you look absolutely goofy. By 18s, for the sun to "cause an error" it had better be a rocket shot, right at them, coming out of the sun to the fielders. Otherwise most other 18s would adjust and make the play. Hence ordinary effort.

During one of my DD's at bats at Stazio Fields in Boulder earlier this month she hit a fairly sharp grounder down the 3rd base line and the 3B didn't react quickly enough to make the backhand play resulting in what was scored as a double.

I told our family friend who was watching the game that I thought that even though it didn't touch the glove that it should have been ruled an error. He admonished me for my "harsh" view and told me to stop being so critical and hard on my daughter.

I told him that I looked at it this way...my daughter plays 3B and if that had been her out there I would have expected her to make that play.

E5...

[PDad]

Also. Anyone that hands you the ATEC Scoring guide for softball should be laughed upon. These two gems alone completely discount this guide:
g - Merely fielding a ball too slowly is not an error.

NCAA has the same thing - it's just worded differently.
14.3.2.2 When a ground ball is fielded and no throw or a late throw is made, a hit is credited to the batter unless a throw was not made or was made late because of checking or holding a base runner on base.

Official Baseball Rules (OBR) version (controlled by MLB):
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.

h - A mental error is not recorded as an error.

The problem with this rule is it so vague that it allows for too much interpretation. The NCAA version is marginally better.

14.22.2 When there is a mental mistake. Throwing to the wrong base is considered a mental mistake.

OBR's is much better: The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.

There are much better scoring guides out there, the ones on the back of the book are better. The ncaa one is much better:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Baseball/baseball_softball_scorebook.pdf

I agree the NCAA rules are better - specifically, the ones contained in the softball rule book. The excerpts in other documents, like the one posted, are out of date. Take a look at Section 8, Sacrifice. The excerpt still has language regarding slaps that was removed from the rules at least 2 years ago.

The other one I like is the "lost in the sun". See scorers score this as hit on an extremely routine fly balls. That is not the point of the "lost in the sun". The ultimate guidance is ordinary effort.
ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

So a 10 yr old on a tough fly ball in the sun, one that most 10 yr olds would drop, go ahead score that a hit. An 18yr old, applying that same standard you look absolutely goofy. By 18s, for the sun to "cause an error" it had better be a rocket shot, right at them, coming out of the sun to the fielders. Otherwise most other 18s would adjust and make the play. Hence ordinary effort.

I agree ordinary effort needs to be applied based on the level of play. Besides age, you shouldn't expect the same level of play at 18U rec as high-level TB. Unfortunately, it is highly subjective to whatever the scorekeeper/coach considers to be average skill.

NCAA scoring rules spell out in numerous places where ordinary effort applies and this isn't one of them. If OE applies across the board to every scoring rule, it wouldn't need to be mentioned so often.

No error is charged to a fielder in the following situations:
14.22.1 When a ball is misplayed because it is lost in the sun or lights, blown by the wind, or the fielder slips and falls—even if contact is made with the ball.

[sittingonabucket]

ok. keep in mind we're playing softball in texas.

here's one for you.

our center fielder is afraid of getting hit by the ball. so on a pop up she runs up. stops, lets the ball bounce. picks it up. and throws to first.

runner on base.

I scored those as hits (happens a lot) and the pitcher's dad wants my head.

error, hit, or just really really bad center fielder?

not making this up.

[sittingonabucket]

as long as Im asking. here's another one I got chewed out on.

foul ball pop ups.

ball is a foul ball. pops up to 3rd. 3rd base drops the ball. a strike. no big deal.

I was told by what seemed a relatively smart group of dads that since the girl should have been out, it should have been a fielders Error, and if the girl gets on base and scores. It's an unearned run.

I miss basketball.

[AlwaysImprove]

as long as Im asking. here's another one I got chewed out on.

foul ball pop ups.

ball is a foul ball. pops up to 3rd. 3rd base drops the ball. a strike. no big deal.

I was told by what seemed a relatively smart group of dads that since the girl should have been out, it should have been a fielders Error, and if the girl gets on base and scores. It's an unearned run.

I miss basketball.

If the pitcher is any good, they should look for a new team.

[sittingonabucket]

it's school ball unfortunately

[PDad]

our center fielder is afraid of getting hit by the ball. so on a pop up she runs up. stops, lets the ball bounce. picks it up. and throws to first.

runner on base.

I scored those as hits (happens a lot) and the pitcher's dad wants my head.

error, hit, or just really really bad center fielder?

We really can't say because it depends on whether an average player in your league would have caught it without having to make an extraordinary play. How do your left and right fielders handle similar plays? If average players aren't afraid of the ball, you still need to discern where she let it bounce out of fear (error) vs it wasn't an ordinary play (hit). Even MLB players ease up early sometimes to let a seemingly catchable fly ball bounce in front of them and it's scored a hit, not an error.

FWIW, some fielders are too conservative because they're scared the ball will get past them - especially if the "coach" goes ballistic over it.

[PDad]

as long as Im asking. here's another one I got chewed out on.

foul ball pop ups.

ball is a foul ball. pops up to 3rd. 3rd base drops the ball. a strike. no big deal.

I was told by what seemed a relatively smart group of dads that since the girl should have been out, it should have been a fielders Error, and if the girl gets on base and scores. It's an unearned run.

That's correct. In addition, any runs that score after what should have been the 3rd out are unearned.

[AlwaysImprove]

Also. Anyone that hands you the ATEC Scoring guide for softball should be laughed upon. These two gems alone completely discount this guide:
g - Merely fielding a ball too slowly is not an error.

NCAA has the same thing - it's just worded differently.
14.3.2.2 When a ground ball is fielded and no throw or a late throw is made, a hit is credited to the batter unless a throw was not made or was made late because of checking or holding a base runner on base.

Official Baseball Rules (OBR) version (controlled by MLB):
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.

h - A mental error is not recorded as an error.

The problem with this rule is it so vague that it allows for too much interpretation. The NCAA version is marginally better.

14.22.2 When there is a mental mistake. Throwing to the wrong base is considered a mental mistake.

OBR's is much better: The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.

There are much better scoring guides out there, the ones on the back of the book are better. The ncaa one is much better:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Baseball/baseball_softball_scorebook.pdf

I agree the NCAA rules are better - specifically, the ones contained in the softball rule book. The excerpts in other documents, like the one posted, are out of date. Take a look at Section 8, Sacrifice. The excerpt still has language regarding slaps that was removed from the rules at least 2 years ago.

The other one I like is the "lost in the sun". See scorers score this as hit on an extremely routine fly balls. That is not the point of the "lost in the sun". The ultimate guidance is ordinary effort.
ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

So a 10 yr old on a tough fly ball in the sun, one that most 10 yr olds would drop, go ahead score that a hit. An 18yr old, applying that same standard you look absolutely goofy. By 18s, for the sun to "cause an error" it had better be a rocket shot, right at them, coming out of the sun to the fielders. Otherwise most other 18s would adjust and make the play. Hence ordinary effort.

I agree ordinary effort needs to be applied based on the level of play. Besides age, you shouldn't expect the same level of play at 18U rec as high-level TB. Unfortunately, it is highly subjective to whatever the scorekeeper/coach considers to be average skill.

NCAA scoring rules spell out in numerous places where ordinary effort applies and this isn't one of them. If OE applies across the board to every scoring rule, it wouldn't need to be mentioned so often.

No error is charged to a fielder in the following situations:
14.22.1 When a ball is misplayed because it is lost in the sun or lights, blown by the wind, or the fielder slips and falls—even if contact is made with the ball.

yep. Scorekeeping is subjective. However if you think that pullng up on a routine fly ball (routine for the level of play), then you should not be a scorekeeper.

I think you are reading the lack of ordinary effort as meaning something. I am reading it as ordinary effort applies every where. Allowances are provided for when there is sun, and the sun can be seen as directly causing an issue in fielding the ball. Still if ordinary effort can offset the issue the sun has caused, most players would alter their course to the ball and make the play. it is only balls for which there is not time to adjust that should be considered as "caused by the sun."