Fork and Beans

[Sam]

From what I've seen, the non-pitchforkers probably know more about what happened that night and afterward. The pitchforkers continue their condemnation in the naive belief that there are no ramifications (or not enough) because they haven't heard about any.

I challenge the notion that it is naive. Uninformed maybe, but it is not naive to think that something like this could happen and there be little to no consequences (see Mike Fox chokes coach in front of players, parents, etc).

Until we hear of some sort of consequence for the blatant wrongdoing, we will likely continue to be "naive".

It is naive to think nothing has changed just because you haven't heard about it. It is naive to think the public censure they've received has had no effect on them. It is naive to think this hasn't affected their relationships with the team, college coaches, umpires and TDs.

Be careful what you wish for regarding consequences because there are also unintended consequences. Fox is a great example - he was booted from Renegades as a consequence and ended up with his own BB franchise as an unintended consequence. Has Fox done anything remotely like that again? If not, it isn't because of these consequences. More likely, it is from being ashamed of what he'd done - and that didn't receive nearly the publicity this has.

What we all want is for this to not be repeated - by them or anyone else.

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

[PDad]

Be careful what you wish for regarding consequences because there are also unintended consequences. Fox is a great example - he was booted from Renegades as a consequence and ended up with his own BB franchise as an unintended consequence. Has Fox done anything remotely like that again? If not, it isn't because of these consequences. More likely, it is from being ashamed of what he'd done - and that didn't receive nearly the publicity this has.

What we all want is for this to not be repeated - by them or anyone else.

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

What a crock of shit - comparing this to child molesters. They have a high rate of recidivism even after spending time in prison.

[Skarp]

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

Good point. Perhaps chemical castration is called for...

[Sam]

Be careful what you wish for regarding consequences because there are also unintended consequences. Fox is a great example - he was booted from Renegades as a consequence and ended up with his own BB franchise as an unintended consequence. Has Fox done anything remotely like that again? If not, it isn't because of these consequences. More likely, it is from being ashamed of what he'd done - and that didn't receive nearly the publicity this has.

What we all want is for this to not be repeated - by them or anyone else.

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

What a crock of shit - comparing this to child molesters. They have a high rate of recidivism even after spending time in prison.

Remove child molester and replace it with a batterer or whatever type of offender you wish.

[fastpitchdad05]

From what I've seen, the non-pitchforkers probably know more about what happened that night and afterward. The pitchforkers continue their condemnation in the naive belief that there are no ramifications (or not enough) because they haven't heard about any.

I challenge the notion that it is naive. Uninformed maybe, but it is not naive to think that something like this could happen and there be little to no consequences (see Mike Fox chokes coach in front of players, parents, etc).

Until we hear of some sort of consequence for the blatant wrongdoing, we will likely continue to be "naive".

It is naive to think nothing has changed just because you haven't heard about it. It is naive to think the public censure they've received has had no effect on them. It is naive to think this hasn't affected their relationships with the team, college coaches, umpires and TDs.

Be careful what you wish for regarding consequences because there are also unintended consequences. Fox is a great example - he was booted from Renegades as a consequence and ended up with his own BB franchise as an unintended consequence. Has Fox done anything remotely like that again? If not, it isn't because of these consequences. More likely, it is from being ashamed of what he'd done - and that didn't receive nearly the publicity this has.

What we all want is for this to not be repeated - by them or anyone else.

PDad,
I don't believe that "nothing has changed" and I'm not naive about the public censure effect nor the affected relationships with college coaches, etc. I'm certain that they have both occurred to some degree, but those are not punishments, those are inevitable repercussions due to their actions, with the first, the public censure, lending toward the second, the affected relationships.

Regarding the Mike Fox dismissal...I was told by whom I believe to be a very reliable source that the SD Renegades did not cite the choking incident as the reason for removing him. As a matter of fact, he was defended by the SD Renegades organization right here on HB and not dismissed until weeks later for a completely separate issue.

So you see he never was punished for the choking incident. Perhaps if he had been, not by the SD Renegades, but by at least one of the major governing bodies of travel softball, then maybe he would not have been able to be "rewarded" so easily with an even better position in a larger and more prestigious organization.

Based on the Fox story, if I were leading the Cal Cruisers organization, I myself might be hesitant to get rid of Coach Sievers. After all, what would he care? He would probably just end up on a bigger and more prestigious organization anyhow.

This is what I call injustice. And this is one of the reasons I am so steadfast in my stance.

Call me self-righteous. Call me a pitchforker. Call me anything you want. I don't care. I see wrong...and I see right.

And this is wrong. And this needs to end...now.

[jtat32]

Copied this from ________, an umpire on the college board:

I can't see me or those I work closest with filing charges or suing over this. We would, however, circle the wagons and ensure that anytime this coach is involved in a game we're working his stay would be miserable and short. As to the sanctioning bodies' responses, I can't control that. I can control who I work for and who I recommend others avoid.

I will take it on faith that this came from an actual ump and I redacted his name because he may be a great guy and a great ump. That said, the only way he could ensure this coach's life would be miserable and short would be through the game. As far as I can gather, he is saying he would give this coach's team bad calls until the coach blows up and gives him a reason to kick him out. Of course this means that he would also simultaneously impacting the players' opportunity to earn a scholarship, and potentially decrease their safety on the field, but too bad, it's more important to win the pissing match. An umps responsibility is to de-escalate, not incite, and not all abide by this. I don't know that this happened here, and coaches share this responsibility, but the possibility is absolutely relevant.

His stay will be miserable and short, not his life. Let's not get carried away. You "gather" wrong, BTW. There's no need to purposely kick calls in order to get coaches to blow up. Most of the time all an umpire has to do is his/her job. Since you've already placed blame on the umpire in the video by accusing him of squeezing the pitcher to make a point, you may have a hard time believing that coaches, players, and fans often blow up when no call was kicked at all.

Making a coach's stay miserable and short involves him having, not a short leash, but no leash. The first reaction to ANY comment from him or his staff would be quick, harsh, and meant to elicit a response for which he would be tossed. I have no responsibility to "de-escalate" a situation when a coach is out of line. I will either warn (once) or eject. The coach's actions determine whether he stays or goes.

The part about "impacting the players' opportunity to earn a scholarship, and potentially decrease their safety on the field" is a nice piece of hyperbole, but ridiculous just the same.

Damn it - lost a longer, better worded response when I timed out, Abridged version:

Never blamed the ump for the incident. I was very clear on this throughout. Never accused him of intentionally squeezing, either. I did say that it was a possibility, but there is a huge difference in these statements. I also identified other potential reasons for the call.

I doubt we'd disagree on the existence of d-bag coaches, parents, and umps. They all exist, and they can all contribute to a game going south.

All adults associated with the game, be it on the field or in the stands, have a responsibility for de-escalation. I'm virtually certain we are disagreeing on semantics, not practice. Throwing a coach out can be an example of de-escalation. How about if we define this as anything that does not escalate the situation?

The potential for bad umping affecting safety and scholarship opportunities is certainly not hyperbole. I see well-intentioned, but incompetent HS umping creating an unsafe environment all of the time. I have also seen injuries occur because of it. As far as scholarships go, if you start screwing with the zone significantly, you're going to make the pitcher or the batter look bad. I'm not saying this happens with any kind of frequency, I'm just saying that the potential is there for it if an ump is of the mindset to send a message in this way.

I'll certainly accept your explanation for how you could make the coaches' games short and miserable. You're the expert, not me - that's why I qualified my statement. Doesn't mean that this is what the ump who posted it meant, but it doesn't matter - the point I was trying to illustrate is that there are umps who will intentionally kick calls to make a point. Thankfully there are many more who are almost superhuman in their ability to remove emotion from their judgement, and the vast majority that do their damn best until circumstances that are often difficult. That said, you and I both know that there are the umps out there who trip over their own egos.

[anonlooker]

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

This is the hysteria borne of the pitchfork mentality I referred to earlier.

There's a new study out that 'exercise' is the number one factor in staving off dementia. You should really consider taking a hike.

[fastpitchdad05]

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

This is the hysteria borne of the pitchfork mentality I referred to earlier.

There's a new study out that 'exercise' is the number one factor in staving off dementia. You should really consider taking a hike.

Yes we all know that Sam can be a bit harsh and over the top. But in this case, he only wants what a lot of us want...what's right.

I say let Sam keep being Sam (not that we could ever stop him!) and let Skarp continue being Skarp and let Black Widow continue being BW.

I think we can all agree...It's that Fastpitchdad05 guy that needs a muzzle.

"The Power of the Bucket!"

[Safebyahare]

At this point I am participating in discussion for my own self entertaining enjoyment,
The same reason why we have kids.
With that said has anybody asked the governing bodies that are travelball?
Or do you just beat the drum of frustration on a national open forum and just hope that they voyeur this way.
Crap just ask them.

[Sam]

You've got me there....this approach certainly works well with child molesters when they are caught and released......they are ashamed, subject to public ridicule and likely will never repeat.

This is the hysteria borne of the pitchfork mentality I referred to earlier.

There's a new study out that 'exercise' is the number one factor in staving off dementia. You should really consider taking a hike.

Hysteria? I merely made a logical comparison which utilizes similar principles to those proposed by another poster.

My old man does suffer from dementia....he meets new people every day and hides his own easter eggs.