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by Pale Rider » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:14 pm

I just showed her...I explained the situation...she did the jaw drop thing also...said that was just...wrong...risking some getting hurt over a game on purpose wasn't cool...I asked her about playing with someone like that...she said if she knew a coach that played liked that, she wouldn't play for them in the 1st place...
Trust me Ive made much uglier decisions in my life and career...and not in a game. And not a 'maybe somebody could get hurt'..and I can honestly say I can sleep at night with a clear heart...
Uno has met me and my offspring...I'm no Angel by any stretch, but I do value my honesty.

I wasn't there, have no axe to grind with anyone...I just personally don't think its ok, cool or funny to allow or encourage kids to do the wrong thing...
Statement,' integrity is doing whats right, even when no one is looking' also applies when everyone is looking...
AKA "Thread Killer"

"Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you."
Edward "Blackbeard" Teach
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by exD1dad » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:03 pm

It's one thing to steal signs (which in this forum has been like religion, nuclear energy & politics) & another for a coach to have his pitcher throw at an opposing players knee (think Don Drysdale) after she punch tags a defenseless runner in the face in a meaningless game. It's a rough sport & injuries happen, like hard slides or whatever, not intentional, just the game.

This on the other hand was the most bush league coaches move I've ever seen, what if it hit the guy in the throat & he died? In 1993 playing in an entertainment slo pitch co-ed softball league some wannabe d__cebag guy ran over a female catcher & broke her neck. Luckily she wasn't paralyzed & had great insurance. the difference ? This coach should have known better, he is supposed to be the example. Will it stop players from playing for him ? I doubt it, before this I'd only heard good things about the guy, top tier program, knows tons of coaches, gets his players into schools & that's all the majority of parents & players care about if they make it to 18's & aren't already committed. Pathetic human being if you ask me.

After my DD got punch tagged last fall my DW asked the coach later & he said the kid was playing for the money, my DD shrugged her shoulders & "said she's a dirty player dad did you see how she slid into 2nd"? She accepts people as they are, her HS has an honor code that she takes seriously & she doesn't expect other kids to do what she does. After all, she left a 2nd round CIF playoff game to get confirmed because "I'm only gonna play softball for 6 more years but I'll be a Catholic all my life".
"It's not giving up if you discover you've been chasing the wrong destiny" -Morley LA street artist who posted this on Melrose Avenue in Jan '14
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by ontheblack » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 am

I wonder if any of our daughters would really have made a different choice in the same scenario?


@blackwidow

That is a trick question.

Mel is a vocal coach. Some kids find those types intimidating, others do not. Mel knows this. He knows who he can put in that position and who he cant. I know a couple kids who would have done that, but most, including my kid, would never have obeyed. But it is a non issue because Mel wouldnt have gone there with those kids.

I didnt show this to my daughter because this is a conversation she and I have had before. She was in a game where the opposing pitcher threw a rise ball and the catcher didnt make a move to catch it and it hit the PU square in the mask. Throwing inside is not something she has ever been afraid to do. If the batter is crowding and gets hit, so be it, but intentionally throwing at someone is a different story.

Those kids and parents are lucky he wasnt hurt. Mel was a fool, but he has to know that every time his team takes the field now, the blues are looking at him and his team differently.

It's a different mindset than what any of you can understand.

This ranks up there with the most asinine comments ever made on HB.
People that jump on a soapbox to preach how holier than thou they are after the fact are naive.

Hardly naive and certainly not holier than anyone. Some of us just have boundaries that dont get crossed.
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by blackwidow » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:33 am

ontheblack wrote:
I wonder if any of our daughters would really have made a different choice in the same scenario?


@blackwidow

That is a trick question.

Mel is a vocal coach. Some kids find those types intimidating, others do not. Mel knows this. He knows who he can put in that position and who he cant. I know a couple kids who would have done that, but most, including my kid, would never have obeyed. But it is a non issue because Mel wouldnt have gone there with those kids.

I didnt show this to my daughter because this is a conversation she and I have had before. She was in a game where the opposing pitcher threw a rise ball and the catcher didnt make a move to catch it and it hit the PU square in the mask. Throwing inside is not something she has ever been afraid to do. If the batter is crowding and gets hit, so be it, but intentionally throwing at someone is a different story.


OTB..Not a trick question at all.
As I stated before there have been tons of experiments that ordinary, good, moral, upstanding people fall victim to misguided obedience to authority figures. That's why I asked that question.

Lots of examples here...
http://heroicimagination.org/public-res ... authority/

I'm trying to understand why those girls did what they were told by this coach in spite of the apparent stupidity of the request. I wonder if they feel badly now? I wonder if they would do it again in the same situation? I wonder if their parents are appalled that they did this or are they rationalizing like PANDA seems to be doing.

~PEACE
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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by AlwaysImprove » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:56 pm

My daughter would have done as the coach requested. Since she played for this coach, that should count for something.

The transition from little girl ball at 14U to big girl ball at D1 was a big transition for us. Certainly mistakes were made during that transition. Sometimes we erred too timid, sometimes too aggressive.

I suspect she felt she would not have fully understood the situation, since she was learning a ton at that time.
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by 3'sDad » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:39 pm

That was so obvious what the coach called & the catcher dodged out of the way. It matters not what kind of game it was. The Blue was incorrect (blue is never wrong) for tighening his zone even farther after the hooting & hollering began to prove his point but what the coach did was completely uncalled for.

Players usually self disciple the opposition to keep things in check - a fielder faceplanting a defenseless baserunner will get that player plunked the next AB by the pitcher; having a pitcher standing in the circle laughing a a batter on the ground in obvious discomfort after being hit by her pitch will get the pitcher plunked - just the way the game is played.
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by dirtlover » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:44 pm

"Players usually self disciple the opposition to keep things in check - a fielder faceplanting a defenseless baserunner will get that player plunked the next AB by the pitcher; having a pitcher standing in the circle laughing a a batter on the ground in obvious discomfort after being hit by her pitch will get the pitcher plunked - just the way the game is played."


Agreed!! Hitting a batter crowding the plate is expected. The pitcher has to prove who owns the zone. It is a game or a battle however you wish to view it. Played at a high level with many facets like a good game of chess. My DD and I have discussed strategy and situations almost daily for the last 10 years. We have joked about the exact situation on the video but joking and pulling the trigger are two very different things. When I showed this to her she was appalled. She couldn't believe they actually did it with how hard that pitcher throws. We discussed our passed conversations and she restated that it was funny to talk about when they threw RIF balls but who would actually do that for real?
To actually call it = asshat, to actually carry it out = immaturity or not understanding the consequences. I doubt the kids processed the whole situation and what could have happened. They just did as they were told. Some long discussions are in order for the parents. Kids do stupid things that is expected. Coaches are adults guiding young impressionable kids. They should know better and should be held accountable. Very disappointed that Mel would make that call. Completely classless...
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by All-American SB » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:07 am

Same thing happened in a baseball game a couple of years ago. If I remember right, both players were arrested and charged with assault. The catcher had a scholarship that was pulled because of the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH_2itdz-1E

These girls are very lucky nothing has happened to them. Criminal charges can be brought against them for the next three years because of their actions.
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by CatWoman » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:27 am

It is really hard to watch that video and like everyone else, I have watched it quite a few times and still can't believe it. It reminded me of a discussion I had with a coach when dd was in middle school (years ago) and we were talking about batters being intentionally hit which would happen to dd quite frequently then. He coached older age groups but told me that there were signs for hitting a batter and also hitting an ump when they needed a "wake up call". I couldn't believe it. After that I chatted with dd (who wouldn't intentionally hit someone - it's a karma thing in addition to being wrong and not wanting to put anyone on base) about what she would do if she was ever told to intentionally hit someone and so she had a plan. Thankfully, in all of our years of travel ball and high school ball she was never asked to intentionally hit anyone so it didn't come up.

Black Widow has a point when she asked what we thought our daughters would do. If you haven't thought about something like this before or have a game plan, it's completely possible that the players would not really know what to do in such a situation and your dd may do what these players did. What were their choices? Everyone on their team and in their stands is very vocally pissed off at the ump and now they are going to refuse their coach? Were the pitcher and catcher supposed to walk off the field? They followed the instructions. By no means am I saying they did the right thing, but parents need to talk with their kids about what to do if they are ever in a similar situation. How many times have you said something really nasty about an ump, especially if you are a pitcher's parent? We don't necessarily see them like we see others - they are the ump and they have the control.

I have seen plenty of situations where the umps are just bad umps and are making bad decisions because they can and they know they are untouchable. I don't know why the coach made the decision - in his experience maybe he had just had enough. It was the wrong decision but hopefully will lead to constructive conversations between parents and kids about what to do when you are given bad orders and that can apply to many situations.
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by AlwaysImprove » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:21 am

Both brothers in the GA incident moved on with their lives. Ethan, the catcher, had one scholarship pulled but was quickly offered by Clemson. Instead he took a $1.73 Million signing bonus to play for the dodgers. Cody has played some minor league ball and graduated from University of Charleston.

As with many challenges in life, you can let it define you or let it be a learning lesson.
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