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PGF vs. ASA vs You Name It

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by Sam » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:21 pm

Since the PGF vs ASA thing has come up again I thought I would comment on a similarity the orgs share. While PGF seems to listen to their constituents more than ASA ever did, their tournaments still allow for up to 5 games in a single day, which is insanity. Boys tournaments require them to play a max of two games a day. Both PGF and ASA do this for one reason and one reason only. Money. More teams in a DE tournament = more entry fees = more money. Screw the health of the young ladies playing the games. Some pitchers are throwing 2-3 complete games in these 5 game marathons. Thats 400-500 pitches, not counting warmups. A starting catcher may be asked to catch 4 or all 5 games......great for the knees.

If you allow less teams in the tournaments, the teams could pick up more pitchers for Nationals and spread the innings around. Raise the fees, they'll still pay it.....they have all year to fundraise. PGF already slices teams into different levels within age groups....create some more. Maybe theyre already doing it and I just don't know about it because I'm out of the game. I'm sure somebody here will let me know.

Its an easy fix.
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by Battle » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:12 pm

As a sanction, how would you monitor that?
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by Sam » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:12 am

Battle wrote:As a sanction, how would you monitor that?


You don't need to monitor it if you cut down the number of teams and limit the games played during a given day to 2 or 3.
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by PDad » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:44 pm

They'd have to cut the number of teams by at least half and keep the same number of game days to keep teams from playing more than 3 games per day. The possibility of a high number of games per day doesn't occur until the number of teams has been reduced to around 3 times the number of fields. For PGF Nats, that's around 24 teams with 8 fields. The number is much higher for ASA/USA Nats where they often have twice as many teams and fields.

Only a couple teams play more than 3 games/day at PGF Nats because there's only 1-2 games/day in the beginning and it's extremely difficult to win 3+ games in a row later on. PGF added a day to its game schedule after Rico's FC played 6 games into the wee hours of the next day. The next year, Stith's Team Mizuno played the max of 5 games in a day.

PGF schedules are more compressed in the first week where the first day of bracket games is cut short by opening ceremonies. Last year, SCA Richardson played 4 games in a day and it could have been 6 if they had won the 4th game and another to force an 'IF' game. The next week, a 16U team played 4 games in a day and then 5 games the next day after they forced an 'IF' game.

The teams that would be excluded by the reduction are not the ones in danger of playing more than 3 games/day. Basically, it's the contenders to win it all that get knocked into the losers bracket early.
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by Sam » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:02 pm

PDad wrote:They'd have to cut the number of teams by at least half and keep the same number of game days to keep teams from playing more than 3 games per day. The possibility of a high number of games per day doesn't occur until the number of teams has been reduced to around 3 times the number of fields. For PGF Nats, that's around 24 teams with 8 fields. The number is much higher for ASA/USA Nats where they often have twice as many teams and fields.

Only a couple teams play more than 3 games/day at PGF Nats because there's only 1-2 games/day in the beginning and it's extremely difficult to win 3+ games in a row later on. PGF added a day to its game schedule after Rico's FC played 6 games into the wee hours of the next day. The next year, Stith's Team Mizuno played the max of 5 games in a day.

PGF schedules are more compressed in the first week where the first day of bracket games is cut short by opening ceremonies. Last year, SCA Richardson played 4 games in a day and it could have been 6 if they had won the 4th game and another to force an 'IF' game. The next week, a 16U team played 4 games in a day and then 5 games the next day after they forced an 'IF' game.

The teams that would be excluded by the reduction are not the ones in danger of playing more than 3 games/day. Basically, it's the contenders to win it all that get knocked into the losers bracket early.



And your point is.....
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by Sam » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:04 pm

Sam wrote:
PDad wrote:They'd have to cut the number of teams by at least half and keep the same number of game days to keep teams from playing more than 3 games per day. The possibility of a high number of games per day doesn't occur until the number of teams has been reduced to around 3 times the number of fields. For PGF Nats, that's around 24 teams with 8 fields. The number is much higher for ASA/USA Nats where they often have twice as many teams and fields.

Only a couple teams play more than 3 games/day at PGF Nats because there's only 1-2 games/day in the beginning and it's extremely difficult to win 3+ games in a row later on. PGF added a day to its game schedule after Rico's FC played 6 games into the wee hours of the next day. The next year, Stith's Team Mizuno played the max of 5 games in a day.

PGF schedules are more compressed in the first week where the first day of bracket games is cut short by opening ceremonies. Last year, SCA Richardson played 4 games in a day and it could have been 6 if they had won the 4th game and another to force an 'IF' game. The next week, a 16U team played 4 games in a day and then 5 games the next day after they forced an 'IF' game.

The teams that would be excluded by the reduction are not the ones in danger of playing more than 3 games/day. Basically, it's the contenders to win it all that get knocked into the losers bracket early.



And your point is.....


They could also change the format to SE.
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by PDad » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:51 pm

Sam wrote:
Sam wrote:
PDad wrote:They'd have to cut the number of teams by at least half and keep the same number of game days to keep teams from playing more than 3 games per day. ...

And your point is.....

They could also change the format to SE.

Straight SE is as unlikely as cutting the number of teams in half.

TCS has a unique format that keeps the number of games/day manageable: https://www.triplecrownsports.com/Classic/EventResults/showbrackets.asp?tournyid=7430&divisionid=2637
- Day 1: 2 meaningless pool games
- Days 2-3: 8 shortened DE pools (ie Brackets AA-HH) of 8-10 teams to seed/split them into various SE brackets
- Days 3-4: Various SE brackets

It's possible a team plays 4 games on Day 3, however it's very unlikely. Otherwise it's 2-3 games/day.
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by orange socks » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:46 am

I also like the way TCS does their brackets. Although our parents have no clue how to follow along. But to the point about having to play so many games in one day, I don't like it either.
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by Sue Trubovitz, Turbo » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:57 am

:)
set healthy standards for your child / athlete!. some coaches pay attention to healthy standards and some do not.
* it's your child athlete pay attention! icing and stretching are important factors in staying healthy!

*some people like to play many games
*some people don't

enjoy all of the opportunities we have in our softball community
The different organizations
Pgf , Tcs , Asa, Usa preps ect....
are providing softball venues for everybody! Unfortunately some include favoritism in their strategy and not just pulling names out of a hat when teams are placed in pools & field locations.
whatever tournaments you decide to sign up for, or your daughters play at, or your teams get to enter,
Hopefully you get a good field location!
Last edited by Sue Trubovitz, Turbo on Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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by Sam » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:08 am

Sue,

I'm having trouble discerning your point. If you think any of the other orgs are better than PGF, I would have to disagree. PGF exists only because of ASA's constant disregard of their members' wishes. If you think they aren't about the money.....well......I don't know what to tell you.

Congratulations on remaining healthy. Many of these kids do not. By the time the pitchers make it to college they cant' throw a 7 inning game and if they do, they cant throw the next day. I hope you aren't arguing that its good to play35-42 innings in a single day. If it was, I'm sure the boys playing travel baseball would do it. They don't. They play 2 games per day in tournament play.
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